Super Smash Bros. for 3DS/Wii U Community

05/28/2016 7:08 PM ·Spoilers

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People's opinions on Cloud ?

Hi ! I have been wondering something, since the 1.1.5 update ; apparently some people think that Cloud is now pretty much a top tier character, basically after Sheik got nerfed, but I never see any arguments that could explain why. Personally, I think he is a mid tier character, but could someone tell me what makes people think he's so good ?

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''PAC-MAN > Cloud'' As a PAC main, I can confirm this is a load of BS.

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I think Pac-Man has a lot of crazy things that can mess up most Clouds, but if you don't think it's favorable for him, I won't argue because I don't really play him too much

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I'm gonna do something that I like to do a lot, which is comparing Cloud to Marth, who is often overlooked (maybe not that much anymore, but usually still lower than Cloud). So Cloud has a faster running speed and air speed, but Marth a faster walking speed. Marth's jumpsquat is slower, but by only 1 frame. Marth's jab is 1 frame slower, but has better range (I think), and is more useful overall ;

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Cloud's dash attack is mostly better. All of Marth's tilts are faster, except his up tilt ending lag, which is 1 frame slower. Cloud's side smash is probably stronger, but comes out 9 frames slower and has 12 more frames of ending lag. I'm not sure how to compare their up smashes, but Marth's comes out 2 frames faster, though it has 12 more frames of ending ;

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Marth's down smash comes out 2 frames faster, though it has 5 more frames of ending lag. Since their down smashes work differently, I won't be able to tell which one is stronger. Marth's grabs are either faster or as fast (for the standing grab startup) than Cloud's, and his trows are a lot more useful than Cloud's. Most dodges/rolls are about the same, but usually Marth's are faster ;

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For all aerials, I won't take the fact that Marth's jumpsquat is 1 frame slower into account, though it probably matters. Cloud's Nair comes out 1 frame faster, and also ends faster in the air, but has 3 more frames of landing lag. Marth's Fair is imo far better, since it comes out 12 frames faster, ends faster, has 2 less frames of landing lag, and is just more useful overall ;

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Marth's Bair comes out 4 frames earlier, ends faster but has more landing lag. Marth's Uair comes out 2 frames earlier, and has 1 less frame of landing lag, but has 1 more frame of ending lag. Marth's Dair is comes out 2 frames earlier, but I'd say it's overall worse since the meteor hitbox (probably the most interesting one) comes out at the same frame as Cloud's ;

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And Cloud's Dair lasts longer, and auto cancels right after the last active frames, so it's more useful overall. Their neutral specials are pretty different, I'm just gonna say that Cloud's comes out 3 frames earlier, and Marth's has 10 less frames of ending lag (when uncharged), but it's hard to tell which one is better ;

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Marth's side special comes out 4 frames earlier, but the hits don't connect as well as Cloud's at higher percents. I don't personally do that very often at all, but some people use an aerial side special to combo into other things ; I don't know if Cloud can do that, but if he doesn't, then I could say that Marth can be more useful ;

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Cloud's up special... is pretty much worse in almost every way. As a recovery move, it's much worse than Marth, even the limit one (in terms of how exploitable it is). The hitbox on Marth's comes out two frames earlier, and has invincibility on frames 4-5 (1-5 in the air), whereas Cloud's only gets invincibility on frames 5-12 on limit Climhazard.

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Marth has his counter, and Cloud his Limit Break, can't tell what is better. Finishing Touch may be cool, but even before it got nerfed it wasn't really threatening, now it's even worse (still a decent kill move, but only one use will remove Cloud's limit) ;

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it really has to do with accessability. marth is not really easy to use, whereas almost anyone can handle cloud.

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Overall, Marth is imo better because of his neutral and approach (with his aerials, grabs & throws), and his off stage game (way better recovery, better edgeguarding). I'm not saying that Marth is super good (though he clearly has the potential to be a solid high tier character imo), but I'm just explaining why I think Cloud is about mid tier, at least definitely not top.

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Well Marth is actually not that hard to play, and there's always that underrated Lucina to try to practice with them, but I guess Cloud must be easier to play, though I don't think it necessarily means it's easier to win with him.

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For those who are on computer, you can see how I rank the characters in patch 1.1.6 (approximately, it can still change) (And keep in mind that it's just my opinion, I know some choices are weird and you can think I underrated quite a few characters, but I personally think everyone is viable, just that some characters are better) : http://i86.servimg.com/u/f86/18/24/25/87/tier_l11.jpg

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And just to clarify, I don't think Cloud is bad at all, he just seems fairly overrated to me.

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So, to sum up everything I said, to make Cloud one of the best characters in the game, he needs a better recovery, because right now it's tied for the worst recovery with Little Mac, and could arguably be worse ; give him a good combo throw and/or kill throw, and improve him a little bit with small buffs. I'm not saying he should be buffed, just saying what he needs to be as good as people think.

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For the people who get kind of angry because of what I say, I'm gonna say what's good about Cloud, although it's not really useful to say that. First off, when he gains the advantage, he can easily keep it to deal damage ; then his kill power is indeed pretty good ; and finally, even though I still think he's not too good against shields, most of his aerials are safe on them if spaced properly.

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Mmh I did some mistakes. Well first off I didn't actually compare the ending lags but rather the total durations of the moves, and Marth's tilts aren't all faster as I said, they're either faster or as fast, except once again, for his up tilt total duration.

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So Cloud is better than I thought in terms of frame data, but it's not that incredible either. His main two weaknesses are still there, which are his recovery and his approach. And imo, Marth's still better because he's still faster (maybe stronger but I'm too lazy to check) in some ways, and has more tools and better off stage survivability

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